#Milkvan will be a problematic ship now

[queen-of-hawkins-why-ler]

Pour one out for all the Milkvans who are going to be harassed endlessly after s5 for shipping a canonically gay man with a girl 😔🤙🍺

[chirpsythismorning]

Saying gay Mike would be hated by the ga bc that would mean that he used El all those years, is homophobic, just like saying bi-Mike would be hated by the ga bc that would mean he could have just stayed with El if he is also attracted to girls, is biphobic.

Bylers using either of these as the basis for why their interpretation is most likely to play out in canon, just makes me cringe bc why are we even wasting time giving validation to homophobia/biphobia as having the last word for how the show has to play out?? Is that what it all comes down to then? Appeasing bigots??

Gays aren’t evil or trying to intentionally hurt others, least of all gay kids that are figuring out their sexuality. Let’s not act like being gay wasn’t seen as being broken or needing to to be fixed, meaning that going along with what society views as normal, was and still is seen as the only option for queer people in general. And I say queer people in general bc you don’t necessarily have to even be gay to experience questioning your sexuality and feeling like you have to do things because everyone else is. Arguably we all go through that! But especially gays in the 80’s bc for a lot of people back then, it was a matter of blending in to survive (for many it still is).

Bisexuals aren’t evil or trying to intentionally hurt others for falling out of love, losing feelings, or just merely not being attracted to/compatible with someone of the opposite sex. Straight people are capable of recognizing that they aren’t attracted to or compatible with every person they meet of the opposite sex. Does any of that make them less straight? No. So why is it so hard to understand it’s the same way for bisexuals and even queer people in general? Nobody, bisexual or otherwise should have to stay in relationships with someone they no longer have romantic feelings for, just bc they’re attracted to them or even were just confused and thought they were but it ended up not being enough?? Attraction is important, yes, but feelings are arguably even more so (especially when you have something else to compare it to, causing the dilemma in the first place). I mean look at Stancy/Jancy? Is Nancy viewed as problematic for being attracted to Steve and having deep feelings/being attracted to Jonathan, and having conflicting feelings about that? No! And so why should it be problematic for Mike?

The reality is, homophobes are going to hate Mike if he comes out as queer, regardless of whether he is revealed to be gay, bi or unlabeled.

This is why basing Mike’s sexuality on the backlash of bigoted audiences’ is a moot point to me.

I mean, as it is, most of the general audience already hates Mike as a result of his behavior in s3-4, and this is straight Mike we’re talking about! I’m obviously not referring to milkvans or Redditors, bc they only make up a minority of hardcore fans who hate byler and will defend Mike to the point of demonizing El. I’m talking about viewers that have seen the show once through each time a new season releases and then move on afterwards without being in online spaces. That is the majority. The majority of the general audience, homophobic or otherwise, does not like Mike anyways at this point. So, who the hell cares what they think about queer Mike in the end??? They’re already anticipating going into s5 and continuing to dislike him, so the argument that the show can’t do this or that bc those same people won’t like him?… That ship has already sailed.

If anything I could see the non-homophobic majority accepting queer Mike, regardless of what label he ends up identifying with, bc then at least it will finally give them some clarity about where that resentment they had for him was coming from, ie misunderstanding him completely and now finally getting some answers.

At the end of the day, bigots will do what they do best. They’ll make up any reason they can think of for why queer Mike is wrong. And so why should we base our interpretation of things on what will be more palatable to those that the show was never intended for in the first place?

[wakeupthemembersofbylernation]

I can’t believe you’re gonna make me defend a ship I’m against, but what are you even saying?

“The rejection of the bi mike theories has nothing to do with the possibility that someone could be bi. It has everything to do with the fact that that headcanon is based in romanticizing a deeply unhealthy relationship dynamic” - No? What Byler, regardless of how they view Mike’s sexuality, “romanticizes” Milkvan? No one’s denying that Milkvan is deeply unhealthy. But a relationship being unhealthy ≠ it doesn’t exist? Milkvan literally exists, and it has existed in some form for four seasons now. I don’t see the logic in saying that because a relationship is unhealthy and another is healthier, to even acknowledge that a romantic history exists is “romanticizing” it.

“I cannot respect any point of view that is going to call their dynamic in S1 and S2 cute because it never was… Even if it was intended to be romantic, calling someone this often isn't ok. And with the way that it's written, the audience isn't meant to find it romantic.” Okay, that’s fine. You’re allowed to hold that position. And you’re allowed to analyze why Milkvan isn’t healthy even in S1 and S2. You’re allowed to never have found them cute. Lots of Bylers feel this way- I’m not one of them. I definitely found them cute when I first watched Stranger Things, but I agree there are certain things (such as “Will you be like my brother?”) that raise questions. The truth is though, the vast majority of the audience did root for Mike and El in Seasons 1 and 2. You don’t have the majority position. Saying “it never was” cute is 100% a valid opinion, but it is still an opinion. You can argue that gay Mike proofs were incorporated in S1 and 2, rendering Milkvan inherently invalid.

But you can’t say that the audience wasn’t “meant” to find it romantic because that’s not… true. If we believe Byler is a plot twist- and it is, to the vast majority of the audience- there’s a reason why they’ve slowly built out this storyline instead of just starting the show with Byler being together. Milkvan WAS presented as a valid romantic ship, both in the show and the marketing. Things have changed, but the Mlvn hype train was absolutely a thing back in the season 1 and 2 era. People literally made songs about them, and they dressed up as them for Halloween!

To anyone part of the fandom or even out of the fandom back in 2016 and 2017, it was impossible to ignore the cultural conversation surrounding Milkvan. Even if your argument is that romantic Mlvn was rotten from the beginning, Mike and El’s relationship, whether platonic or romantic or a sibling-like bond, is central to Stranger Things and it always has been. People interpreted Mike calling El as romantic because the show and marketing presented in in this way. You’re allowed to call this into question through analysis, but you can’t just pretend this didn’t happen.

“Being uncomfortable with this relationship dynamic isn't erasing a bi point of view. It's acknowledging canon evidence. The audience is meant to interpret this relationship as problematic.” But a relationship potentially being problematic has nothing to do with whether Mike is gay or bi? Most Bylers, regardless of how they view Mike’s sexuality, are uncomfortable in some way with their relationship dynamic. That’s why they are Bylers. Mlvns often don’t acknowledge canon evidence that shows Mlvn’s unhealthy dynamic. But some gay Mike truthers seem to wanna erase and deny the current canon nature of Mlvn all together!

“Both the milevens and bi mike people lash out and name call whenever people point out facts from the show. The maturity level is the same. And it's impossible to take seriously. A lot of those people are projecting themselves onto this relationship and getting mad when people insert facts into their fantasy version of events - the op is absolutely correct.” - No? This isn’t correct at all. Most bi Mike truthers I’ve seen are completely chill with gay Mike truthers. I’m personally in the middle and see both sides and respect Bylers on both sides. But toxic gay Mike truthers often DO lash out and name call, and they aren’t chill with bi mike truthers. There IS biphobia in this fandom, absolutely. It’s not about having a different opinion, it’s about the inability to separate one’s interpretation from what is objectively true. Both gay Mike truthers and bi Mike truthers should be able to make their posts in peace without getting angry anon asks in their inboxes. But bi Mike truthers absolutely get attacked on a regular basis, often personally, with their intelligence insulted, for daring to have a heterodox opinion.

“I feel like the people who started with the bi mike theories started off being totally reasonable and acknowledging that there wasn't tons of evidence. And has now morphed into people harassing anyone for not viewing this as more than a hc.” - No? First of all, wdym there isn’t evidence? Mike is literally dating a girl within the canon of the show, and he’s literally monologued to this girl that he loves her. That alone is in no way proof that he can’t be gay, nor is it proof that he can’t be bi obviously, but when will we as a fandom have the humility to admit that ANY queer Mike theory is just that… a theory?? The evidence is on our side, but at this point, BOTH gay Mike and bi Mike are HCs. The VAST MAJORITY of the audience sees Mike as straight because he’s dating El. No matter what side a Byler falls on with regards to Mike’s specific sexuality, we are all going against the grain here. For good reason! But sometimes people act like Mike is gay officially in canon instead of in an interpretation of canon.

“A lot of people are claiming that Mike's sexuality hasn't been confirmed so all theories are plausible but that sounds a lot like the people who are dismissing that Will is gay because it hasn't been directly stated…The only reason the cast and the plot haven't directly confirmed this is because it's a surprise for the final season. Not because it's debatable and open ended. It's not if you're paying attention.” - No, this isn’t true either. Mike’s sexuality is ambiguous by design. It has the GA confused because they don’t understand his actions in Season 3 and 4. It has diehard Milkvans up in arms cause they believe Mike is the straightest character to ever exist. And it has the Byler fandom getting into daily wars over whether he’s gay or bi cause it’s open to interpretation. I agree there are a lot of clues that potentially point to him being specifically gay. This would make a lot of sense. But those clues can only lead you to that conclusion if you already open yourself up to believing that Mike is queer, which most of the audience isn’t ready to do yet. This is because IN CANON, Mike is dating a girl. He has kissed her and held her hand and made out with her and given romantic gifts to and danced with.

The way one reads this IS rooted in heteronormativity. And of course it’s ridiculous for people to say these things disprove queer Mike, even exclusively gay Mike. Mike is a very queercoded character! But to say this is comparable to the situation with Will’s sexuality is ridiculous. Mike is meant to be a plot twist, Will is meant to be a foregone conclusion. Even before he was confirmed as gay, Will was always written as hyper visible in his sexuality. He had cruel people define his sexuality for him, and he could never hide. And he never showed interest in any girl ever. He never pretended to be straight! People absolutely denied his sexuality, sure, but they could never point to anything in canon to support their argument. The most they could do was try to argue that he was asexual or was maturing slowly. But everyone knew that something was up with Will. And Will was written as having “sexual identity issues” in the show’s Bible. The situation with Mike is simply NOT the same thing, for all the reasons I’ve stated.

“Wanting him to be bi is fine. Getting pissed and calling it bi erasure that he isn't doesn't help anyone. Some people prefer to stick to canon evidence and factual analysis and don't have interest in hc. There is nothing wrong with this. It's not offensive or discrimination when someone doesn't indulge in your fantasy.” - Do you see how condescending this is? Gay Mike truthers don’t have a monopoly on analysis. What if my analysis of the show leads me to believe that Mike had a crush on El in Season 1 and 2? What then? Calling bi Mike a HC but acting like gay Mike is simply objective fact is crazy. Even if you believe it’s a more supported theory, it simply doesn’t make views that disagree with you a “fantasy.” Literally no one in the tag is saying you can’t make analysis posts for gay Mike. No one’s calling anyone biphobic for that. They are calling toxic Bylers biphobic when they are being biphobic!

how some of y’all sound in the tag today…

like oh my god. people can disagree with bi Mike. it’s not personal until you make it personal. it’s literally just objective analysis of what’s presented to us in the show.

but for some reason some of y’all are out here acting like gay Mike truthers skinned your pet and gave you the hide as a gift or smth.

you’re not a victim just because my friends and I don’t agree with your analysis of a TV show, lmao.

nobody’s saying you’re a dead-to-rights homophobe for liking bi Mike, either. we’re saying you might have some biases to unpack just like everyone else who’s been exposed to heteronormativity (aka literally everyone), and that maybe you’re making judgements based on what you want to see rather than what’s actually there.

(i will say though: it is homophobic behavior to make incredible reaches for any and every other sexuality just so you don’t have to admit that Mike could be a homosexual.)

(i will also say that it seems like y’all want bi Mike so badly, and it’s sooo personal, because you want to think you could still be in his fictional dating pool 😬)

[willthecleric]

It baffles me how most people STILL doubt Byler after all this on top of all the canon evidence. And the way they treat Milkvan in show and talk about it (Finn comparing it to a leech you can’t pull off your leg… SO romantic). They also don’t hype Milkvan anymore. Just Byler. Which is one of the things this show does that goes against it being a queerbait. If it was a queerbait they’d be hyping Milkvan too. Also, the cast isn’t made up of homophobes and none of them strike me as Milkvans (Noah has literally said he ships Byler more than once) and they are happy about whatever is happening with Byler.

Not to mention it makes no sense for Milkvan to be endgame and Byler not.

They gave Milkvan no build up, parallel it to a boy and an alien, diss it constantly and made it a train wreck because it’s endgame?

Noah confirmed Will was in love with Mike all along and Byler was building up from the start and they did that to go nowhere with it?

Milkvans made a huge deal about Mike and El saying that they love each other in S3 (no shade, I get how that kind of thing is exciting for shippers) but now there is this whole thing about Mike not being able to express it to her? That makes no sense and does nothing to advance the narrative. Mike has an epiphany that people say he had last season?

They could have easily made Will gay and not in love with Mike the whole time. From a writing standpoint I don’t get what the point of that is if it goes nowhere. What does him pining over someone he can’t have do for him in terms of growth? Kind of excessive and a waste of time if it’s unrequited. Also plays into the overused and problematic trope of the gay boy in love with their straight best friend. And the Duffers subvert problematic tropes.

I’m not even going to go into all the Byler subtext because there is so much. There is literally a PowerPoint with over 200 slides that covers Byler evidence.

i can’t even doubt byler happening this season anymore!!

finn said mike is trying to be normal (loving 11) but can’t seem to do it apparently and he also might be into some new things:

charlie said in an interview: « you guys (finn & noah) have beautiful scenes this year where you kinda open up and you share. there’s an amazing scene this season and i remember watching you filming it and i was like oh. »

they acknowledged will’s love for mike in this same interview and finn himself said « will’s kind of love towards mike (..) and i think it’s a really beautiful thing. »

david (aka hopper) said s4 has a beautiful ending which concludes something that has been going this s1. clues and easter eggs have been given along the seasons to discover what it is.

he also acknowledged (him too!!!) will’s love for mike, with finn backing him up after that:

there’s also noah tweeting and telling a crowd that he ships byler or finn reposting in his insta story byler content-